In the mean time, it really doesnt make that much difference. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley. You wouldn't want that happening in your house. best hunting game for oculus quest 2 bullet stuck in chamber backwards The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Huh. Since no one uses handguns for long range shots, the inherent short range of full wadcutters (or backward bullets) are no drawback whatsoever and that is why they are very useful for handguns. the Nosler average of 3 rounds was 0.4665 +-.0005, and the federal and barnes were both .04645 +- 0.0010. Sold a guy a Glock 19 and a few weeks later sold him a Glock 23. A 2LT loaded the magazine with the round in backwards and released the slide jamming the round in the mouth of the barrels chamber. I'm able to move the silde about 10mm and that's it. Look. Be sure to check out our gun classifieds where you can buy, sell or trade your gear. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Anyone have anything similar happen/other suggestions? Worth a watch. Wasnt the 50 Alaskan originally a cut down 50BMG bullet stuck into a case backwards? JavaScript is disabled. .308 Bolt action rifle, shooting all day in a tactical type match, all of a sudden a very tight round gets stuck 95% of the way into the chamber and won't budge either way. I have seen more damage done to barrels from attempts to clear the obstruction than caused by the stuck bullet itself. It wont go off by accident. Mar 16, 2008. dsr30 said: I went to the range today and left with a round stuck in the chamber of the XD. You not only endanger your own life, but those near you, What would be the point of this even if it was safe.. Throw it in a fire and let it cook off. No way could this happen with the correct caliber ammo! I wish D.S. What a few shotgun blasts between friends? There are only two types of shooters: those who have had stuck bullets and those who will. So, Im assuming that your into reloading to some extent. The bullet from a squib stuck in the barrel must never be cleared by subsequently attempting to fire a live or blank round into an obstructed barrel. Therefore, the bullet gets stuck in the barrel. I want to fire my weapon to clear it out so I can dig further but iffy cause i dont want to cause damage to the gun or myself. . Just like flipping it around without flipping it around. Grip the base of the case with waterpump pliers or locking pliers, and twist while pulling upward. | The second round was able to chamber, but as it did, it pushed the expended brass down the barrel. Bullet Lodged in Barrel Backwards Thread starterdefygravity Start dateFeb 8, 2013 The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast Member Benefits: No ad networks! But you are correct in that if the bullet doesnt upset or deform on contact, whatever slips through the air more efficiently will also slip through tissue more efficiently. Many years ago I heard of an accident that took place in a gunsmith shop. All Rights Reserved. Negligible is the word that comes to mind. can you explain how you got the cartridge out? Drag is bad in the air but good when the bullet strikes its target. Quick easy method for removing a stuck round from you pistol chamber. How to Remove a Stuck Bullet! I wouldn't use a rod to bang it out. Never oil a chamber. A stuck bullet is generally caused by defective ammo. Beware of "precision,". If the case does not at least begin to come out, repeat the penetrating-oil dose, wait a day or two, and try again. With care, a few simple tools, and good procedures, you should be able to handle this problem easily. If you shoot enough, and especially if you shoot handloads, odds are pretty darn good that you or someone you are shooting with will experience a stuck bullet. You must log in or register to reply here. Ive personally loaded hbwcs backwards to make BIG cavity hollow points. 1 with a bullet stuck in the bore. They really seem to loosen up and performance improves. I myself would never put a round into the chamber at home, incase anything like this happened. The primer never ignited. This is done by marking the shaft of a cleaning rod at the muzzle while it is resting against the stuck bullet. Subscriber Services. Agreed, It sounded like you thought I was against wadcutters, not at all. You probably have a point when it comes to supersonic velocities though. When the slide failed to completely close she attempted to rack the slide (tap rack and bang) and wedged it in further. The round cleared the barrel thank goodness! Also known as squib removal.. Any advice on what I can try would be appreciated. 4. Did the second round go through easier not doing as much damage because the block was weakened? After it sets a bit, the barrel is inverted and the solvent dumped into a suitable container. Used the antenna from my 2010 tundra to tap it out. At 30 seconds in he expresses concern with the pressure. Always use as large a diameter rod as possible. Now in order to insure the gun is empty, rack the slide back and push the slide lock upward with your thumb. With the tool in a vertical position, open the gun fully. try mortaring the stock, smack it on the ground while holding the charging handle and yank it backwards. Since the rifle was designed for use on Alaskas great bears, Johnson cut 720-grain (47 g) boat-tail .50 BMG bullets in half, seating the 450-grain (29 g) rear half upside down in the fireformed .50-caliber case. I dont know, duck tape and string are just as safe and a lot cheaper. Make sure your rod is as large in diameter as possible that will still move freely in the bore. Feb 19, 2017. The classic case for me occurred years ago when a fellow brought a .22 rifle into my shop. HK. I would not let him shoot at my house or with me anymore. You just saved me and my husband a lot of heartache and worry. I wouldn't snap the bolt shut, in case the firing pin ever hit the rim. During a previous attempt to remove the bullet, a smaller diameter cleaning rod had been driven down inside the bullet, expanding the bullet and making it more difficult to remove. JavaScript is disabled. And wouldnt you know it: they are! Mark the location. Shooter had a mag fall out during COF, rather than grab a new one he picked it up off the ground and reseated it. If you are that worried about setting it off, take a wooden dowel rod and drill the center of one end so you have no chance of even touching the primer. The rod is then removed, laid along the barrel with the locating mark even with the muzzle, and a mark is made on the outside of the barrel at the end of the rod. Maybe the same? Thanks. Well, hes been my best friend for over 40 years, we went to kindergarten together, so that isnt happening. Had to pound on the bolt handle with a hammer and block of wood to get the bolt open. are you able to see the round from the top of the slide (ejection port)? bullet stuck in chamber backwards. Suggested fix is weak hand on the slide and palm-strike the back of the lower/grip, hard, to try and eject the round. to be honest with you, the hyper velocity stuff usually doesnt group too well in a host of guns. bullet stuck in chamber backwardswilliam paterson university application fee waiver. After beating the gun apart, we found a buldged barrel. Never should have separated the lower from the upper. I can see those issues, too. I'm new to owning a rifle. It chambered and fired, but did not extract. Lead bullets cant be pushed as fast as jacketed rounds. Delicate situation. There were companies that did exactly that with milsurp .303 after WW2; they quit because the base of old FMJ rounds is open, and the lead had a tendency to extrude out into the barrel when fired. If the knock-out rod is too small, the point of the bullet can force it off to the side into the wall of the bore. A little inspection can go a long way. I would Use a piece of Steel Fuel Tubing Just small enough to fit in the barrel Od .350 x id .250 That way nothing in the center to touch the PRIMER! Many people will also run their finger over that area as a redundancy. Thats what you had to work with 50 or 75 years ago. 114K subscribers in the SigSauer community. Trim the case's! Never shot tissue, rarely hit what I was aiming at, never tried it again. Until next time, good luck and good gunsmithing! how do you think primers get pressed into the shell? Never have and have no intentions of either. Spray a bit of WD40 down the muzzle and let sit for a few. I then made a mark on the rod at the point where it entered the muzzle. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. OP, although Indy is probably right, I'd let him do it for me. Had to pound on the bolt handle with a hammer and block of wood to get the bolt open. I was then able to work the round out of the barrel with a screwdriver. "The fear of death follows from the fear of life. Just remove the slide stop and slide the whole top end off of the frame. He came back to the range with both and we implored him to only load and fire one at a time to reduce the risk of mistakes. Custom Mossberg 500 at the Range and Live Turkey!. (Ret.) Only guns I've seen blow up on the range were shooting reloads. Mark Twain, A buddy I was shooting with one day loaded .380 in his CM9 mag and fired. Retract rod 5 inch or so. The theory there is that a liquid with minimal surface tension will conform to whatever shape is the most aerodynamic by the simple fact that it doesnt have the structural rigidity required to resist the most aerodynamic shape. We recovered some pretty chewed up brass and noticed the target was fairly tight with only one flier that had keyholed. Joseph VonBenedikt is with Joel Hodgdon to talk about the improved accuracy and long-range potential of the already reliable Core-Lokt ammo line. They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm. high vels are fine , though. The Mossberg 500 Pump Action Shotgun is one of the most popular home defense shotguns on the market. Such a bullet, however, would produce the worst possible terminal ballistics. Good luck. Although a rare occurrence,. I'm planning on calling the shop that I purchased the gun from tomorrow but I am pretty new to guns and am very curious to know what the problem is. You know everyone watched till the end just to see him blow shit up so everyone was warned. Wouldn't need to drill a hole in the center either. It's not a squib. If you have to force it closed it will always be hard to open. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, troubleshooting, accessories, classifieds, and more! It won't travel "downward" enough to disengage from the lip on the slide. The force from this almost always gets the round out after a few tries. [h/t gunwire.com]. Not only is the pressure focused out toward the case neck (cracked cases), but the pressure was also not focused on pushing the bullet forward and created an overpressure situation (flattened primers). Consider the risk of using a gun that isn't feeding/firing correctly. I was (am) fond of accuracy. FYI, that is not a stovepipe. Hey Glenn, maybe I can help. Mar 4th 5th, 2023, Monday 3/6 8:00AM-3:00PM = HB 952 Testimony Signup, Monday 3/6 8:00AM-3:00PM = HB 704 Testimony Signup, Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section, Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses, View up to date on firearm-related events. The guy that did this at my house is an idiot. To argue the point of why you would want to fool around (i.e. Those backward bullets are in a heavy weight-forward configuration which means they will maintain their path without tumbling. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. It goes to considerable lengths to test the theory that backwards bullets are more lethal than frontward facing pills. Many moons ago I was running a gun store/range. He thought he might have stuck a bullet in the barrel, so he went back home and tried unsuccessfully to remove the bullet. IAFIS is a database that the FBI uses to store information about shell casings. June 22, 2022 . I had one that jamed but it still fired.It sounded really weak when it fired and i could not move the slide.Since i knew it had fired i taped the slide on the desk and it freed it but the bullet remained in the barrel.I shined a light in the barrel and could see the bullet cocked to the left.I disasembled the gun then put the barrel in a vise and beat the bullet out.When i got it out it looked like the third bullet from the left.Luckily everything on the gun still looked good.Never had any trouble since then.It was the same ammo you have there.Winchester white box from Walmart.There was no damage to the box.After seeing your photo i will start paying more attention to all ammo when i load the magazine. basically I just grab the back of the slide on the serrations then kinda karate chop the back of the grip/tang area with the web of my right hand. No matter what type of rod you use, make sure it is solid. Can I use all of your guns for future backwards bullet testing? If you want to see one round per gel block, you are going to have to start buying them. Is there a malfunction with the firearm preventing you from doing this or are you just physically not strong enough to move the slide? Abrupt surfaces cause turbulence. 7. A fresh 4x4 will do fine. Because of that, I always wash out the barrel behind a stuck bullet to remove any traces of powder. 2023 Outdoor Sportsman Group. This burned far faster than charcoal, and allowed for the drastic reduction in sulfur content for comparable burn rate. Whats the difference between this and a wadcutter? I knew there was trouble when he brought the rifle into my shop because there was a piece of arc welding rod sticking out the barrel! Slide is hesitant to move back forward when released. Give a Gift Sounds like an out of spec round or maybe a 9x18 instead of the 9x19 round. One old trick with the .38 Special was to use a 148-gr. This spring I was out on a prairie dog expedition with a group of friends. This may have altered the performance on steel both backwards and forwards. These days, I put all 9mm away before I take the LCP and 380 out of the bag. The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. In most cases with handloads, there was insufficient powder to push the bullet all the way out the bore. Joseph Von Benedikt shows his custom 500 and how well it shoots. The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. Took me a little to find it but found the video where they did more testing on this years ago. Of course that huge flat front surface means those bullets slow down way, WAY faster than Spitzer (pointed) bullets. I then took a brass-faced hammer and with a few blows to the end of the rod, carefully drove the bullet out the chamber end of the barrel. Backwards FMJ provide enhanced tissue damage at the expense of penetration. Just out of curiosity, were you shooting reloads, or was the gun dirty? . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_N71iYZHd8. what i usually do is remove the magazine, grasp the slide with your left hand (if you're right handed) pointing the gun at a safe direction. Communism only made one thing that works, and capitalism can make it even better. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. It will just go back into the 1/2 open position. Make sure to watch till the end. I have used oversized brushes, poured a chamber cast, even used a .22 lead slug backwards from the muzzle, no luck. Or did the second round cause more damage because the block was weakened? The round is in the chamber but the slide won't move forward or backward. Thanks for the help. I had my wife move the lever because once it's out of the way you can open the slide and lock it in place (impossible without extra hands). A squib can be a danger to you and your firearm. Ive got a problem with this video. I have no doubt whatsoever that wadcutter bullets are safe to shoot out of firearms. I keep a length of 7/16 aluminum rod in my range bag as a squib remover. I believe those backward bullets penetrate a lot farther than bullets with their points facing forward. It must have happened in the gun. 9x18 is slightly wider diam. It also had the characteristic of being far better at holding shape, allowing the use of compressed charges. You have entered an incorrect email address! I got a bullet stuck in my 300wm. It won't extract by normal means. This does jive with what was told about the origin of sporterized military rifles. A gunsmith was tasked with removing a stuck bullet from a rifle. My friend had tried unsuccessfully to drive the bullet out with a cleaning rod from the muzzle. It is real. From what I was told, there were no injuries, but there were several very surprised and shaken folks in that shop. Hello. Unfortunately, a lot of the damage is caused by well-meaning folks who simply utilize the wrong tools in trying to correct the problem. Amp up your AK with these exciting accessories. You should have had a hard bolt close. Uncategorized. And if you want such a bullet to maintain velocity at longer ranges, either shoot a really heavy bullet with the highest possible muzzle velocity or shoot such bullets with a pointed soft rubber tip. My first instinct would be to try to yank the bullet with needle nose pliers. I wouldn't push anything against the primer though. Such a bullet, however, would produce the worst possible terminal ballistics. If you take a small screwdriver you can gently move the metal with the hook away from the shell. I've got the problem solved now guys, thanks for all the help!! I also read about someone loading backwards rifle round to produce subsonic loads. I've never heard of bullets being put in backwards, but I have heard of backwards facing rounds: You must log in or register to reply here. Come to think of it, I believe a regular seating die would work as well-I mean it is the same bullet diameter after all. I guess I'll try to tap it out with the rod. "FTE" is not automatically understood, as it has two distinctly different meanings. Second Media Corp., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. experiment) to a hand loader, is much like asking a drag racer why he is constantly fiddling with his traction bars- because its fun! This was so far set back though, I think I would have caught it. As a matter of fact I am a handloader, I fully understand the desire for a handloader to want to experiment. Yes, you can probably clear a simple jam and continue shooting your handgun, but in the long run, if there are either mechanical issues or underlying problems with the gun, you might be putting yourself or others at risk by doing so. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Just dust yourself off and get a beer after. Wrench goes on the spring rod, muzzle down but off the table, and you hit the wrench with the hammer to shock the rod/spring in to the correct place. No tumbling == less frontal surface area == deeper penetration. I thought it tumbled after it left the barrel. Once the bullet is pushed back into the mag, drop it (but keep the slide locked back). Hey, hold my beer, tea, whatever, and watch this.. Joseph Von Benedikt is with Rafe Nielsen of Browning to take a look at a new X-Bolt series rifle. Lighter and tougher and more precise than ever, it's the perfect back country hunting rifle. Insert bullet only into chamber and hold it lightly against the rifling with a pencil. (yes i reload). The bullet never left the case. Had a little round tip on it so I didn't have to worry about scratches. Second Media Corp., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Here is the link to his solution. In this case there appeared to be only one .17-caliber bullet, and it was located very near the end of the chamber. No, a FMJ backwards is not as aerodynamic as a FMJ forwards. Chamber: A gun's chamber must be the same size as the bullet. If the firing pin is slightly exposed or the primer is sitting high (and since the slide is locked up you can't tell) you could discharge the round and cause a great deal of damage to the firearm, nearby property, yourself and others. commercial meat slicer rental near me. Now you probably already know this. Sounds like the .455 Webley Mk III. I personally like the CCI Minimags in the model 60.For me they shoot well. Maryland Shooters is the most active and largest Maryland gun community online. I had no idea where the bullet was located or if, for that matter, there was just one bullet. Now, place the chamber end of the barrel on a piece of hard wood. The bolt should close with no more than light pressure. The shell had a. All it will do is compress the smokeless powder. A forum community dedicated to Ruger pistol firearm owners and enthusiasts. Before I could stop him he let the slide go forward. . Wow, that's crazy. With the bullet removed, I cleaned the bore and checked for damage where the bullet had been stuck. What Id be interested in is how it effected the BC of the bullet. I took the rifle back to my shop so I would have access to my tools. Big booms are only fun on the far end of the barrel. I would take that over a shotgun or any other center fire rifle caliber without any hesitation whatsoever. JavaScript is disabled. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1284373&page=1, Slow feeding a controlled round feed action. Oct 15, 2020 #8 300 Blackout Fine-Tuning: Finding the Right Barrel Length for Your Rifle. Yeah, the ones I have are "Stingers" Look like nice bullets though, Also off topic, but the *******s at the shop sold me 4 different brands of ammo, one of them being super velocity (the type it says not to use in the instruction manual). There would be marks on the ogive for every land and easy to see. The casing was getting stuck in the chamber and I was a able to pry one out with a screw driver and try again but it happened again and I gave up and went home and get it out with a cleaning rod through the barrel. They soon switched over to pulling the FMJ bullets and replacing the projectile with purpose-made soft points. During WWI, this tactic was used by British snipers with their .303 caliber in response to German snipers using a steel plate to protect them while they stuck out their head to shoot. You know it really is true. Thanks. I'll give that a shot. Its not the first time people have done dangerous things just because they wanted to confirm an internet rumor. Try pouring kroil down the other side of the barrel. The article was not about wadcutters, it was about loading bullets backwards. The ideal shape for a supersonic projectile is a boat tail ogive. My guess is that if he tried this with 1/8 or 1/4 steel the results would have been different. Let it set. If the laser bullet gets damaged/stuck in the chamber also voids the warranty. An abrupt front surface (full wadcutter or backwards bullet) causes turbulence. At the gun fires the bullet travels down the barrel, the gases that are created propels the slide backwards (blowback) and the extractor ( a hook of sorts) grabs the brass, pulling it out of the chamber and pivots it out of the slide (and gun) as it comes all the way back. For that reason, I always kept an 8-inch length of brass rod in my shooting kit. With the safety on the it will slightly slide back (normal) but when the safety is off it will slide back twice as far and stop. bullet stuck in chamber backwards; fresh baked long beach strains. now comes the tricky part, with your right hand, smack quickly the arch of your thumb and pointy finger at the back of the grip safety. It is first time I see ammo stuck in chamber backward.. Feb 8, 2013 #15 Bootknife Active Member. The magazine blew out the bottom, the shooter experienced stinging "recoil" and the gun locked up, locking the slide in place. But do you know how to properly use them? After having seen several other videos on this Youtubers channel I would say that the thinking behind this video is to test a hypothetical. (guide rod/handle) Save Reply Quote R RCP Phx Registered Joined Oct 2, 2011 Ward Nov 19, 2018 @ 12:56am. bullet stuck in chamber backwards 27 Jun. Only when we get to 5:25 does Mr. Ammo Channel point out that its a really, really stupid idea; split casings and all. With the slide locked back visually inspect the chamber to insure no live round remains in the barrel. The geometry of a Spitzer point and casing would concentrate the rapidly expanding gases of the propellant toward the crimp and create astronomical pressures in that area. yes, if you turn the bullet around so that the pointed end is in the case, the internal ballistic pressure does cause a pressure gradient greater where the case is crimped. Turn down the volume, obnoxious music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_N71iYZHd8. Anyway, YouTube commentator Stephen D. Kingputs the idea into historical context . . A 2LT loaded the magazine with the round in backwards and released the slide jamming the round in the mouth of the barrel's chamber. Hrm, Well I was using live rounds. then you should be able to extract. ken is right here, release the bolt hold open lever, to let it go all the way forward. The wrench/hammer is for when your spring rod gets set off-center. You know that is facing the wrong direction? Maybe the wrong caliber inserted into the chamber but backwards? Place it in firm contact with the stuck bullet. Yes it may work (and you may live to tell about it) but your banging on the front of a live round. Also, all the wadcutter bullets I have shot had a flat or concave base. With handguns used with moderate to light powder charges, stuck bullets are not uncommon. The gun gets stuck and they can't open it. Anodized matte black for durability. How would that be different than a WC or SWC? In a safe area, muzzle pointed down, use a piece of scrap wood set against the edge of the ejector port on the slide and push down against the grip. 24. He had tried to remove the bullet with a cleaning rod but had been unsuccessful so he asked me to take at look at it. Robert Farago is the former publisher of The Truth About Guns (TTAG). He started the site to explore the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns. Taurus has redesigned this sporting pistol for performance. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Originally posted by humansteak: JavaScript is disabled. I have loaded for bench rest shooting (6MMPPC) and I know enough to stay within the limits established by professionals. Be careful. In fact their only downside for handguns is they penetrate too well if you are gearing up for self-defense against human attackers with bystanders in the area. Is there some reason, except that your too cheap too buy some bullets, that you would not just get some regular hollow point, or expanding bullets, instead of fooling around with this bad idea? This is easily done with a solvent. A mark was then made on the outside of the barrel at the end of the rod. I just hope we don't run out of rappers.". Old time reloaders used to talk about loading soft lead .38 wadcutter or semi wadcutter bullets backwards. 2- Get a "Scotch-brite" pad and thoroughly scrub the inside of the receiver to remove any rough spots. The ideal bullet shape, from an aerodynamics perspective, is something like a football. The slide then goes forward, pushing a new cartridge back into the chamber. It can also be caused by firing too many rounds without cleaning the gun, which builds up residue and causes friction. Put the gun in a vice with it pointed at a bag of sand. This is also a good lesson for guys that run their 9mm guns and 380 guns at the range. What works best at 20mph is not necessarily best at 1500mph. If you turn the bullet around and cut off the tip so that is is exactly flat, you have essentially made a Wad Cutter or Semi-Wad Cutter Bullet. It is known these match target barrels have issues with flat nose bullets. I will need to ream the chamber to allow flat nose bullets to be . No, being dirty isn't a problem for the XD. Bullet Lodged in Barrel Backwards Thread starter defygravity; Start date Feb 8, 2013; . bullet stuck in chamber backwards bullet stuck in chamber backwards. Oil the inside of the barrel and grab the chamber end of the barrel in a padded 3 jaw chuck in the lathe and clamp it tight so it can't slip. Evidently there was some powder residue at the base of the bullet as there was an explosion, the rod was driven back toward the gunsmith, and the bullet came out the muzzle with enough energy to penetrate a toolbox on an adjoining bench. It could be "Failure to Extract" or "Failure to Eject". Raindrops are near spherical. When I went to unchamber the round the bullet stuck in chamber and some of powder fell into the action and the rest went out with the brass. Old trick, still a good one. By the way, I stand by my hypothetical analysis of the video because, the same channel, has a detailed video about the reloading of Berdan primed steel case ammo, as a test of a hypothetical scenario where 7.6239 was no longer available. The ideal bullet shape, from an aerodynamics perspective, is something like a football. If the case was stuck it should have been hard to open. Hope this helps anyone stuck in a jam. unless you are pushing on the primer only with something the size of a firing pin you won't set it off. The bullet is being pushed into the barrel hard enough to get stuck in the throat or beginning of the rifling. An innovative way to carry your backup gun. This happens occasionally at the range I work at - mostly with hand loads. The other observation is that by WWI the British were using aluminum or cellulose tips in their full metal jacket .303 (Hague compliant) ammo to lighten the front of the bullet and increase the tumbling effect (thereby negating the whole purpose of the Hague Convention rule the Japanese picked up this trick in the next great war).